It Pains Me To...

thelinuxshow-request@mailman.ibssnet.com · Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:00:11 -0500

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: about TLS (David Farning)

   2. Re: about TLS (Curt Howland)

   3. Why I listen to THS--trust? (David Farning)

--__--__--

Message: 1

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT)

From: David Farning <dfarning@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

"Jeff Gerhardt (TLS)" <jeff@thelinuxshow.com> wrote:

Hey folks, do not judge Dave Farning harshly. if you

skip the religious

comparisons, most of his comments were about "style."

Everything he has

said we have said to ourselves at one time or another;

sometimes weekly.

I apology for the religious analogy. Maybe a Wizard of

Oz analogy would have been better.  There will always

be those who want to open the curtains and those who

want the curtain left in place.  I was not intending

to make a religious statement just a historical

example of groups that have a vested interest in

removing/retaining the status of the curtain.   

I sounds like we strongly agree on the fact the

families fight and thats OK.

How to get Doc, et.al. on the cheap. What you are

doing works.  But I am afraid that advertisers will be

looking for something a bit more formal.  For another

poor analogy.  Sitting at home coding, I usually were

shorts and a tshirt.  At a job interview I tend to

where suits.  TLS is struggling to do both at the same

time.  To us listeners, we are saying I'll code/listen

naked if I what to.  but, ad buyers are likely

listening while sitting in their cubicles muttering to

themselves about the lack of 'sex, drugs, rock and

roll.' while looking for product placement

opportunities.

BTW I noticed that you don't have the archives for the

latest expo up.  If you need some one to go through

and clean them up.  I Think I can figure out how to

remove the dead space and splice segments.

Thanks

Dave Farning 

--__--__--

Message: 2

From: Curt Howland <Howland@priss.com>

Organization: Acolytes of the Goddess Priss

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:16:57 -0400

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Mr. Farning also points out that he "Love[s] the show, haven't missed

an episode in over two years."

Different things attract different people. I find the eternal Quest

for Doc to be a wonderful ongoing sub-plot. Unlike contrived plot

devices, this one is real. That makes it all the more interesting me.

And if it ever gets actually annoying, for Doc or any of the other

principles, it will change. It *can* change because TLS is

individuals coming together because they want to.

There are lots of little ways (VoIP is one example) to reduce the

bills without limiting the spontaneity that, as you say, makes this a

show of individuals instead of a slick robotic packaged pointlessness

no matter how professionally done.

Curt-

On Wednesday 13 October 2004 11:08, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to

say:

> Hey thats what makes the TLS special. You even have proof that one

> is listening to a _real_ live casting. People chit-chat about the

> wheather, thats as simple as it gets. And thats how the TLS rises

> above other, cold-hearted, cash-in here dudes, shows.

--

September 11th, 2001

The proudest day for gun control and central

planning advocates in American history

--__--__--

Message: 3

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:23:36 -0500

From: David Farning <dfarning@sbcglobal.net>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: [Thelinuxshow] Why I listen to THS--trust?

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

I was thinking a lot about TLS today after jeff mentioned his

frustrations running the show both financially and personally.

I was thinking about why I spend 90+ minutes per week listening to the

show.  The answer comes down to TRUST.

1.  I trust the the show will be interesting.  Between the panelist and

guests, rarely is a show boring.  Some bits I could do

 without but over all interesting.

2.  I trust the panels choice in stories.  Because of the vast amount of

information coming across my desk, the selection process

 of  what get read is pretty harsh.  I rarely go to information sites

anymore.  Instead, I glance through my rss feeds.  If the article doesn't

 make the cut within the first couple of lines it doesn't get read.  I

just skip to the next one.  I've noticed that while listening to TLS,

because

of it's linear nature, I tend to stick with an story. I've developed a

trust that if the panelists feel the piece is interesting or significant

then I too will likely get something from it.  When I stared listening,

I would listen during my commute.  Now, I like to be sitting in

front of my computer so I can follow the article links.

3.  I trust the panel not to engage in vendor sports.  I've gotten the

feeling that the panel is above vendor sports, distro sports, gui sport....

Those sports are a waste of everyones time.  Maybe someone can start a

few new worthwhile sports; my distro has the fewest freaky idiosyncrasies,

or my distro has the most cross compatible tool chain....  (better back

off I feel a rant coming) 

4.  I trust the panel not to pander.  How many times have we see the

media back off from some story because of some special interest such as

fear of offending

a big advertiser or conflict of interest with a parent company?  You

boys are willing to piss anyone off.  Probably not the not the most

fiscally sound

tactic but, at least I know you aren't going to pull any punches.

I have no idea how you sell trust to advertisers to pay the bills but

Good Luck.

David Farning

--__--__--

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End of TheLinuxShow Digest

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Curt Howland)

  2. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Shawn Milo)

  3. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Thomas Terry)

  4. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Daniel Taylor)

  5. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Shawn Milo)

  6. update: (Jeff)

  7. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Paul Eggleton)

  8. about TLS (David Farning)

  9. Re: about TLS (Robert M. Stockmann)

 10. Re: about TLS (Shawn Milo)

--__--__--

Message: 1

From: Curt Howland <Howland@priss.com>

Organization: Acolytes of the Goddess Priss

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:27:36 -0400

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,

logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?

On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to

say:

> Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?

--

September 11th, 2001

The proudest day for gun control and central

planning advocates in American history

--__--__--

Message: 2

From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:56:44 -0400 (EDT)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Naah. I'd much rather give them a dollar straight out than spend $16 or wha=

tever

on an over-priced shirt or mug, knowing that most of the money goes other p=

laces

than supporting TLS.=20

I would, however, pay a small subscription fee to TLS, like a monthly or an=

nual=20

recurring charge on a credit card. I think PayPal supports something along =

those

lines. A voluntary system like this, with the proper support from the commu=

nity

which loves TLS, could pay the phone bill pretty easily, even if only those=

of us

with a full-time income chipped in.=20

Shawn

> That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,=20

> logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?

>=20

> On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to=20

> say:

> > Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?

>=20

> --=20

> September 11th, 2001

> The proudest day for gun control and central=20

> planning advocates in American history

>=20

> _______________________________________________

> TheLinuxShow mailing list

> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com

> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow

>=20

>=20

--__--__--

Message: 3

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:04:12 -0400

From: "Thomas Terry" <tterry@wowway.com>

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

     I agree...I would pay a monthly fee to keep the show in good shape

and on the air...but if the show did get enough of the profits, I'd buy

logo'd merch too...

                             Tom T

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:56:44 -0400 (EDT), Shawn Milo

<ShawnMilo@runbox.com> wrote:

> Naah. I'd much rather give them a dollar straight out than spend $16 or

> whatever

> on an over-priced shirt or mug, knowing that most of the money goes

> other places

> than supporting TLS.

>

> I would, however, pay a small subscription fee to TLS, like a monthly or

> annual

> recurring charge on a credit card. I think PayPal supports something

> along those

> lines. A voluntary system like this, with the proper support from the

> community

> which loves TLS, could pay the phone bill pretty easily, even if only

> those of us

> with a full-time income chipped in.

>

> Shawn

>

>> That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,

>> logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?

>>

>> On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to

>> say:

>> > Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?

>>

>> --

>> September 11th, 2001

>> The proudest day for gun control and central

>> planning advocates in American history

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> TheLinuxShow mailing list

>> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com

>> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow

>>

>>

> _______________________________________________

> TheLinuxShow mailing list

> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com

> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow

>

--

--__--__--

Message: 4

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:24:03 +0100

From: Daniel Taylor <daniel.taylor@danielt.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Hey,

This might be an unpopular idea but maybe it's time to stop the LIVE

show and switch to a podcasting way of doing things, record the show

the day before, edit and release (using bittorrent).

Even if you don't use torrent this way will still allow you to cut

down file sizes, you could edit out that starting and ending music

and cut the break, file's would be smaller (less bandwidth used,

less $$) and you would not have the cost of streaming live.

This way you can use all your income from ads can go to paying the

phone bill (which you can cut using VOIP) and trips, thus giving a

better show because you can actually afford to go to the places you

want (and sound quality may be a bit better than it is now with VOIP).

OR... keep the live show just for paying people (with free d/l's of

mp3's still), probably a very unpopular idea, but i thought i would

suggest it anyway.

- Dan

--

Daniel J. Taylor

GPG Public Key - http://www.danielt.com/public.key

--__--__--

Message: 5

From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:49:59 -0400 (EDT)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Cutting out the live show would do the show in, I believe.

First of all, it's a great thrill to be in the IRC live during the show.

Second of all, the IRC adds to the show, because the panel sometimes

takes questions and comments from the IRC. Thirdly, the fact that the

show has a definite time and place, Tuesday night on thelinuxshow.com,

makes it an event. It's something people look forward to. There won't be

the same anticipation waiting for the download link to appear, and some

listener enthusiasm will wane.

Limiting the show to paying customers would also kill the show.

1. The (live) listener base would drop by probably over 95%.

2. Advertisers will be less inclined to support the show with

   such a small listener base. Bye bye phone bill payments.

3. Technical requirements to make sure that paying customers

   have no problem connecting, and others can't get in. Will cost

   money up-front and require more maintenence. Poor Kevin.

4. It's un-TLS-like to do something like that to the community.

Shawn

> Hey,

>=20

> This might be an unpopular idea but maybe it's time to stop the LIVE=20

> show and switch to a podcasting way of doing things, record the show=20

> the day before, edit and release (using bittorrent).

>=20

> Even if you don't use torrent this way will still allow you to cut=20

> down file sizes, you could edit out that starting and ending music=20

> and cut the break, file's would be smaller (less bandwidth used,=20

> less $$) and you would not have the cost of streaming live.

>=20

> This way you can use all your income from ads can go to paying the=20

> phone bill (which you can cut using VOIP) and trips, thus giving a=20

> better show because you can actually afford to go to the places you=20

> want (and sound quality may be a bit better than it is now with VOIP).

>=20

> OR... keep the live show just for paying people (with free d/l's of=20

> mp3's still), probably a very unpopular idea, but i thought i would=20

> suggest it anyway.

>=20

>=20

> - Dan

>=20

> --=20

> Daniel J. Taylor

> GPG Public Key - http://www.danielt.com/public.key

>=20

> _______________________________________________

> TheLinuxShow mailing list

> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com

> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow

>=20

>=20

--__--__--

Message: 6

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:57:28 -0500

From: Jeff <jeff@ibssnet.com>

To: "thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com" <thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com>,

       Linux Show Staff <staff@thelinuxshow.com>

Subject: [Thelinuxshow] update:

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

I am leaving Chicago now so will not be on IRC till about 9:55 tonight cdt.

Also as a follow up to some of the comments that have been given to me

over the last 24 hours, I would like to thank the listeners for their

support.

I would also like to clear up one thing that has been bothering me.

In my comments from last night I kept on referencing the efforts that

kevin and I have made over the last 7 years.  Someone could interpret

that comment thinking that I have not fully appreciated the efforts made

by Doc Searls, Russ Pavlicek and Arne flones.  Just in case someone

thinks that, I want to short cut any comment by saying that TLS would

not exist at all without the timly support of these three gentlemen.

They have been part of the backbone of the show emotionally as well as

participating week after week.  Keep in mind that no one has earned a

dime of payroll by being on TLS, it has been a volunteer effort.  This

has made it possible for us to have an informed respected panel, that is

no influanced by the whim of sponsors.  They have all done it for the

good of the community and because we have formed a tight bond of

friendship.  I suppose now it is appropriate to add Eric Raymonds name

to the ledger as well.

For those of you who have not been with us since the very early days, I

would also like to mention two other names; Chris Kolar and PJ Hyatt.

During the 1998-1999 time frame those two guys participated in our show.

 PJ started as an intern and within a year was a full panel member

before heading off to college.  Chris was one of the first people Kevin

and I approached when we changed the format of the original show to a

permanant panel during segment one.  Both are missed, and both are

welcome to return in the future.

Just wanted to spread the credit due.

--__--__--

Message: 7

From: Paul Eggleton <bluelightning@bluelightning.org>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:48:03 +1300

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:07, jeff@thelinuxshow.com wrote:

> But, as of last week we have a green light from our New Zealand based

> edition of TLS.  With luck we should have that show up in the next few

> days (so Dave get your butt in gear).

As a Kiwi listener myself, this is great news.

> it is possible that I may be stepping down as the lead man on TLS and

> moving onto another project. 

It would be a sad day were this to happen. You're a key part of the show and I

don't think it would be the same without your influence.

> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once this year,

> and we are now looking at a total of nearly $18,000.00 in uncollected

> revenue that was supposed to pay our costs to the last two LinuxWorld

> expos.  I am not going to give the name of the other vendors, as I have the

> hope that some will still pay.  

This is really disappointing. The non-paying vendors probably don't appreciate

(or even care about) the consequences to you of not paying.

With regard to Sun, we've all seen countless examples of their "left hand,

meet right hand" fragmented behaviour, and I suspect this may be just more of

the same, though with more serious consequences this time.

> We do have the NOC thing happening and we were recently over

> charged at the most recent LinuxWorld in August an almost unbelievable

> amount of money by a couple of the expo service companies.  

I truly hope you can find a way out of paying these ridiculous charges. If you

can take the aggravation it may be worth taking them to court on principle,

even if most of the money will be spent on lawyers - assuming you won't be

put further in debt by it.

> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do this, and

> so far it is directed toward my personal business contacts.  But some of

> them are well enough known in the community that this crap could be

> believed and it could escalate.

I wish you were at liberty to expose these people. But I know you cannot.

> So, I guess you can understand why I am presently lacking in enthusiasm for

> members of the Linux community right at the moment......

I'm saddened to hear about all of these bad things that have been happening,

but try not to let them break your spirit. TLS is a major asset to the

community. Most importantly, don't let the naysayers and the morons who are

using underhanded tactics get what they want. As a regular listener and

(admittedly small-time) open source developer, please understand that I

really appreciate your contributions, and I know there are many others who

think the same.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the entire TLS team for all of your

hard work. It has not gone unnoticed.

Cheers,

Paul

--__--__--

Message: 8

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:49:30 -0500

From: David Farning <dfarning@sbcglobal.net>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

About the personal attacks-

   Easier said then done--but move beyond them.  If you look back

through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when

moving into the mainstream.

   Look at issues like minorities rights to vote.  No one really cared

when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league

intellectuals.  As soon as the movement started growing into the

mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their

lives.  A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African

Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers

promoting change.

    Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later

most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with

the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good guy).

   Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in

the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck

even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (try

searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)

   That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.

Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software for

many reasons.  Each of these different groups seems to be splintering

off it their own direction.  What we need are a few a vendor neutral,

issue agnostic leaders.  TLS show in many ways provides that leadership

--note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of

knowledge I'll overlook that for now;)

About the money--

   The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux

folks.  People have been cheating each other for as long as they have

been able to make agreements.  SUN not paying it's bills, what did you

expect?  A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- to

promote themselves.  TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns

actions lately.  Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad.   On

the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.

About the show--

   How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up

bandwidth.  If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live show

that makes sense.  Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part

of the show?'  There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes

and such have gone on for 20 minutes.

   I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present.  One minute

TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important

issues.'  The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost a

phone connection.  Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,

infotainment....

   How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a

model for the show personae.  Professional, informative, structured

while still being personal.  We all know light bulbs in projects break,

phone connection go down, etc.  It is up to the presenter or shows

organizer to quietly keep things going forward.

   How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he

is out to dinner--this one gets my goat.  Why do you expect listeners or

advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do

not appear to do so?  I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.

Finally--

   Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years.  I

promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the

other day.  If you need to take a break take one--just come back when

you can.

David Farning.

--__--__--

Message: 9

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:08:53 +0200 (CEST)

From: "Robert M. Stockmann" <stock@stokkie.net>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Farning wrote:

> About the personal attacks-

>     Easier said then done--but move beyond them.  If you look back

> through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when

> moving into the mainstream.

>     Look at issues like minorities rights to vote.  No one really cared

> when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league

> intellectuals.  As soon as the movement started growing into the

> mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their

> lives.  A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African

> Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers

> promoting change.

>      Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later

> most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with

> the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good guy).

>     Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in

> the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck

> even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (try

> searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)

>

>     That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.

> Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software for

> many reasons.  Each of these different groups seems to be splintering

> off it their own direction.  What we need are a few a vendor neutral,

> issue agnostic leaders.  TLS show in many ways provides that leadership

> --note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of

> knowledge I'll overlook that for now;) 

And who is David Farning, if i may ask?

>

> About the money--

>     The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux

> folks.  People have been cheating each other for as long as they have

> been able to make agreements.  SUN not paying it's bills, what did you

> expect?  A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- to

> promote themselves.  TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns

> actions lately.  Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad.   On

> the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.

Sun's Jonathan Schwartz is the worst thing which could happen to Sun.

>

> About the show--

>     How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up

> bandwidth.  If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live show

> that makes sense.  Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part

> of the show?'  There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes

> and such have gone on for 20 minutes. 

Hey thats what makes the TLS special. You even have proof that one

is listening to a _real_ live casting. People chit-chat about the

wheather, thats as simple as it gets. And thats how the TLS rises

above other, cold-hearted, cash-in here dudes, shows.

>     I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present.  One minute

> TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important

> issues.'  The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost a

> phone connection.  Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,

> infotainment....

>     How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a

> model for the show personae.  Professional, informative, structured

> while still being personal.  We all know light bulbs in projects break,

> phone connection go down, etc.  It is up to the presenter or shows

> organizer to quietly keep things going forward.

>     How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he

> is out to dinner--this one gets my goat.  Why do you expect listeners or

> advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do

> not appear to do so?  I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.

You finally hit the point why people love this show, its made by ordinairy

people and that means mistakes and errors can occur.

>

> Finally--

>     Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years.  I

> promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the

> other day.  If you need to take a break take one--just come back when

> you can.

>

> David Farning.

Regards,

Robert M. Stockmann

--

Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE

Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist

crashrecovery.org  stock@stokkie.net

--__--__--

Message: 10

From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:14:49 -0400 (EDT)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Just wanted to throw in my 2=A2 -- I agree with Robert M. Stockmann.

TLS is a friendly, informal show. It makes you feel like you're sitting in =

a comfy

living room with good friends.

Please keep it that way.

Shawn

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Farning wrote:

>=20

> > About the personal attacks-

> >     Easier said then done--but move beyond them.  If you look back=20

> > through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when=

=20

> > moving into the mainstream.

> >     Look at issues like minorities rights to vote.  No one really cared=

=20

> > when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league=

=20

> > intellectuals.  As soon as the movement started growing into the=20

> > mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their=20

> > lives.  A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African=20

> > Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers=

=20

> > promoting change.

> >      Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later=

=20

> > most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with=

=20

> > the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good =

guy).

> >     Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in=

=20

> > the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck=

=20

> > even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (tr=

y=20

> > searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)

> >=20

> >     That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.=20=

=20

> > Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software fo=

r=20

> > many reasons.  Each of these different groups seems to be splintering=

=20

> > off it their own direction.  What we need are a few a vendor neutral,=

=20

> > issue agnostic leaders.  TLS show in many ways provides that leadership=

=20

> > --note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of=

=20

> > knowledge I'll overlook that for now;)=20

>=20

> And who is David Farning, if i may ask?

>=20

> >=20

> > About the money--

> >     The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux=

=20

> > folks.  People have been cheating each other for as long as they have=

=20

> > been able to make agreements.  SUN not paying it's bills, what did you=

=20

> > expect?  A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- t=

o=20

> > promote themselves.  TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns=20

> > actions lately.  Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad.   On=

=20

> > the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.

>=20

> Sun's Jonathan Schwartz is the worst thing which could happen to Sun.

>=20

> >=20

> > About the show--

> >     How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up=20

> > bandwidth.  If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live sho=

w=20

> > that makes sense.  Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part=

=20

> > of the show?'  There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes=

=20

> > and such have gone on for 20 minutes.=20

>=20

> Hey thats what makes the TLS special. You even have proof that one

> is listening to a _real_ live casting. People chit-chat about the

> wheather, thats as simple as it gets. And thats how the TLS rises

> above other, cold-hearted, cash-in here dudes, shows.

>=20

> >     I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present.  One minut=

e=20

> > TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important=

=20

> > issues.'  The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost =

a=20

> > phone connection.  Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,=20

> > infotainment....=20

> >     How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a=20

> > model for the show personae.  Professional, informative, structured=20

> > while still being personal.  We all know light bulbs in projects break,=

=20

> > phone connection go down, etc.  It is up to the presenter or shows=20

> > organizer to quietly keep things going forward.

> >     How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he=

=20

> > is out to dinner--this one gets my goat.  Why do you expect listeners o=

r=20

> > advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do=

=20

> > not appear to do so?  I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.

>=20

> You finally hit the point why people love this show, its made by ordinairy

> people and that means mistakes and errors can occur.

>=20

> >=20

> > Finally--

> >     Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years.  I=20

> > promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the=

=20

> > other day.  If you need to take a break take one--just come back when=

=20

> > you can.

> >=20

> > David Farning.

>=20

> Regards,

>=20

> Robert M. Stockmann

> --=20

> Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE

> Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist

> crashrecovery.org  stock@stokkie.net

>=20

> _______________________________________________

> TheLinuxShow mailing list

> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com

> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow

>=20

>=20

--__--__--

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: about TLS (Jeff Gerhardt (TLS))

--__--__--

Message: 1

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:40:37 -0500

From: "Jeff Gerhardt (TLS)" <jeff@thelinuxshow.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Hey folks, do not judge Dave Farning harshly.  if you skip the religious

comparisons, most of his comments were about "style."  Everything he has

said we have said to ourselves at one time or another; sometimes weekly.

His comments were very constructive when you look at them as a whole.

It is a legitimate picture of TLS.  Further he has a right to his

opinions, that is what being a part of a family/community like tls is

all about.  Families disagree and fight with regularity, but at the end

of the day they care about each others lives.  If you guys could only

witness Arne and I when we have had a couple drinks and the conversation

invariably turns to politics.  You would be hard pressed to find two

people as diametrically divergent as Arne and I when it comes to

American Politics.  We scream at each other and turn red (or blue) in

the face.  But at the end of the day we do recognize the importance that

every individual plays in a community like ours.  In other words we are

as brothers.

It has been a risk to keep the production values low, and although those

values are much higher than the first several years on the air, we

still, push them down in large part to add to the sitting around a pub

table feel to the show.  The thing with Doc is unavoidable, he is a busy

gut and frankly, we are damned lucky to have a guy like Doc willing to

spend as much time as he takes out of his busy schedule.  If you would

have told me back in 1999 when Doc first started calling in occasionally

that 6 years later he was going to set aside 45 hours a year for the

next 6 years I would have asked what kind of drug were you taking?  It

is a privilege and we will take Doc in any way we can.

Although Dave did not talk about Eric, his participation has changed our

style a great deal.  It has gotten us pushed into the OS side of the OS

v FOSS debate.  For most of us on TLS this has been OK as a side effect,

because most of us are already on that side of the debate intellectually.

It is on the record that I think the GPL is a remarkable document and in

a perfect world could be a single model solution to software

development.  But we are in a real world and not a perfect one.  The

work that people have done on the commercial side (whether we admit it

or not) has saved Linux on more than one occasion.  So reaching out and

accepting alternative open source licensing schemes has been an

important thing (in my opinion) during the evolution of the community.

I have to admit that it was a risk letting Eric Raymond have free and

unlimited access to the show; but we did so because whether you agree

with him on a specific issue or not, he is filled with an enormous

amount of information.  Eric and I agree on lots of things and perhaps

that is why I encouraged him to join us when he can.  But, we do not

agree on everything.  If you do not know Eric personally and understand

Eric being Eric, it could become impossible to do something like we have

done as it would invite conflict.  Eric is a straight shooter who says

exactly what he believes. He apologizes for no opinion, and frankly why

should he, political correctness is bullshit.

So, OK so it is a shock to the system the first time or two it happens

to be told by Eric that you are 100% wrong about something because of

.........

You could react by fighting back or you could react by sitting back and

listening.  I find that the majority of the people in our community are

very smart people and so it is a good idea to take the path of

listening; as I do with Eric.  Most of the time you learn something even

if you still do not agree with them.

Some of these "style" issues fall to what we were trying to create with

TLS in the first place.  We wanted a comfortable place where everyone

could express their opinions (even if they are wrong) freely.

Non of these issues of style though have any connection to the attacks I

have been getting other than some of them may be motivating factors.

These attacks are on a very personal level and I am sure that is why

they have their strongest focus on trying to hurt my business.

**********************************************************

         Jeff Gerhardt- co-host of The Linux Show

  The Consummate Linux and Open Source/Technology Web Cast!

                   www.TheLinuxShow.com

**********************************************************

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

than "Re: Contents of TheLinuxShow digest..."

Today's Topics:

 1. A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (jeff@thelinuxshow.com)

 2. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Shawn Milo)

 3. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Curt Howland)

 4. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Robert M. Stockmann)

--__--__--

Message: 1

From: jeff@thelinuxshow.com

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Cc: "TLS Staff" <staff@thelinuxshow.com>

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:07:16 -0500

Subject: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Sorry about the length of this......

A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff):

First, for those of you who are regular listeners to The Linux Show, you

are somewhat aware of the trama we are having with our COLO provider

going broke.  We are in the process of a three step transition.  We are

moving to a temporary location while we continue to look for what we

believe are more affordable digs.  Because of this move we are way

behind in our show expansion process of re-launching The Linux daily.

But, as of last week we have a green light from our New Zealand based

edition of TLS.  With luck we should have that show up in the next few

days (so Dave get your butt in gear).

We also warned you that the complications of this shuffle of resources

will bump us off line from time to time.  Tomorrow night is one of those

cases and we will not be doing a webcast.  I will try to get back from

Chicago as soon as I can and do an IRC edition of the show.  It is probable

that I will not be back from Chicago till 8:00pm to 9:00pm cdt.  Please feel

free to hang out, and I will join you as soon as I can.

*************************************************************

The second issue is in reference to my participation on TLS in the future.

I have not talked this over with Kevin as of yet, and I will not make a

final choice until he and I have talked it over in detail, but it is

possible that I may be stepping down as the lead man on TLS and moving onto

another project.  My reasons for considering this option are numerous, but I

do have two chief reasons.

The first reason is financial.  We have been trying our best to launch

Geekcast as a multishow network to try to defray the cost of doing The Linux

Show.  For those of you who do not know (and you would have to be under a

rock to not know) we do not charge vendors to appear on the show even though

they consume our resources.

Lets be honest.  A 40 minute segment on TLS is a sweet deal for a vendor to

tell a very specific and detailed story to members of the community.  Its

good for the vendor, and its good for the community.  But it is expensive to

produce when the vendors (in general), do not sponsor as much as they did in

the 1997 through 2003 time frame.  The truth be told, IBM will not sponsor

us because we are to small in terms of dollars for their Ad department

people to even consider.

So, when we do get vendor sponsors that also happen to be good member of the

linux community, we are pretty thrilled with those vendors.  IDG in

particular has been near saint like in my eyes for their support.

Our present financial problem is that in ways success is killing us.  More

people listen, costs go up, and revenue has not kept pace with the demand.

As you all know, we also do not demand for you the listeners to pay to

listen, although I am sure some of you feel we ask for donations to often.

Did you know there are listeners who have donated well over $500.00 over the

years; 20 here and 50 there.  The truth is, we have gotten almost as much in

listener donations over the years than from the vendors.  This has not just

kept us on the air, but has made it possible for us to remain insolated from

the vendors.

This problem was further increased by a number of vendor sponsors who simply

have not paid their bill. SUN Microsystems for one has not paid a commitment

that they made in December of 2003.  They were supposed to be one of our

major sponsors for us to go to LinuxWorld last January.  The good news is

that the SUN keyboards did show up to our stage.  The bad news is they never

paid the bill for the things that cost us money.  We delivered on the

promotion and advertising, but they never paid the bill.

Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once this year, and

we are now looking at a total of nearly $18,000.00 in uncollected revenue

that was supposed to pay our costs to the last two LinuxWorld expos.  I am

not going to give the name of the other vendors, as I have the hope that

some will still pay.  I will give you a hint on one, it is a major partner

in the Novell community (but NOT Novell's fault for sure).

But, we have given up on SUN ever paying.

I want everyone who is a listener to take note of the number of times that

SUN has been on our show since last January.  Even though SUN has abused

TLS, we have continued to have them on the show because there was

information that the community needed to know about SUN and it needed to be

delivered in a fair and unbiased way.  That was more important than our

"business" relationship with SUN.  It is sort of funny when you consider SUN

got nearly 2 billion from Microsoft and they could not seem to pay their

"tls" bill.  We have given up on collecting this as SUNs "community" rep is

now denying that she ever made the commitment.  Funny that they got all that

art work and ad copy to me for ads they never booked?????

What companies like SUN ( and their community reps) do not realize is that

we use the commitments they make on advertising and trade show sponsorships

to pay our bills on attending and broadcasting from those same trade shows.

So, even though SUN may not pay a bill, does not mean that WE (TLS) do not

spend that money.  We budgeted based upon the commitments people have made

to us.  So, if people do not pay their bills on the commitments they make,

those costs end up comming out of the pocket of the owners of TLS; in other

words, Kevin and I.

To be fair to the vendor sponsors, not all of our present problem are all

their fault.  We do have the NOC thing happening and we were recently over

charged at the most recent LinuxWorld in August an almost unbelievable

amount of money by a couple of the expo service companies.  We will probably

have to go to court to get it back, which means a lawyer will get most of

it.

The irony is our business model of balancing sponsors and community

donations has worked and worked well.  We have been able to build a very

remarkable network room full of equipment.  Up to February of this year, all

that equipment was paid for with no debt and our model was keeping up with

expenses for the most part.

So, taking all these issues into consideration, the NOC move, the bad debts

from advertisers, the overcharges at Linuxworld and growth outpacing

community donations; 2004 has turned into a truely sucky year.  We started

2004 in the best financial shape in the history of TLS, we are 3/4s through

the year and we are nearing the worst year in our history.  Talk about a

crappy turn of events.

This alone is enough of a pisser to make me want to step away from the show

and focus on trying to dig us out of debt.

If you listen to the show regularly I hope that you can hear in my voice the

passion I feel about our community of listeners and the Open Source

community as a whole.  I do not always agree with one or another of the

other people on the panel about something specific, but what we all share is

that passion. And in the last few weeks I am having trouble finding that

passion, and that is the major reason why I am considering stepping aside.

The financial stuff aside, 2004 has been a hard year.  I have not had real

great health the last year or so, and that was compounded by an accident I

recently had that is hampering my ability to get around.  I was really

significantly better by August and thought I had all the issues finally

licked.

That is until I had the accident in September.  This has crushed my spirits

because it is now apparent that I can not attend ISPCON in November.  If you

are a regular you know that I am even more of an ISP guy then an Linux Guy.

I am facinated with Open Source and believe in it.  But, I LOVE the

Internet, I defend it like a child and have worked in it or around it for

the last 25 years.  I am sure I could have found sponsor money to go, but

the body says no.

I have hidden these health related issues from the listeners because, and do

not take this wrong, its my business and not the publics business.

********************************************************************

OK the financial and health aside, that may still not be a good reason to

leave the show.  I still sound OK, afterall it is radio and you can not tell

how much weight I have gained over the last 2 years.....

Truth be told, I love TLS and would keep doing it as I think it is not only

the most important thing I do each week, but is also the most fun.  So, why

stop?

Well it is simple, I am pissed off.  There are people in the Linux community

that have never liked me for one reason or another.  Many are jealous

because they are smarter than me and infact know far more about Linux than I

do and resent the public profile we have developed at TLS.  Others hate me

because I am not GPL enough for their views.  I think the GPL is a great

license, but I do not limit open source to one license.  And others hate me

because they are techno bigots.  I work at an ISP and so support MAC, Linux

and Microsoft.  That is the real world baby.  So, sometimes I am on a Linux

Box and sometimes I am on a MAC box and sometimes I am even on a windows

box.  In fact at the college I teach at, out of about 700 PC and servers,

there are only a handful of linux systems present, most under my control.

Again, if you are a regular, you know that I often use my daughters PC

during the show because it is next to the fridge, and so next to the

Guinness (and food).  This PC also happens to be a very very very old Win 98

machine that is so old and finiky that it is not worth the trouble to make a

dual boot.  The box has to be win, because of the software my daughter uses

for school.  I have recently gotten a Win4Lin license for this box but have

yet to install it.  Oh evil and bad me.

To the point.  Over the last month or two there have been a handful of

people in the Linux community that have been attacking me personaly and have

concluded that I do not measure up to their standard of what a proper Linux

Advocate should be.

These people have descided to try to assasinate my personal and business

reputation as well as discounting any of the efforts that I have made on

behalf of the community as less than valid.

These people have accused me of trying to unfairly use people in the LUG

community.

These people have accused me of some supposed nefarious desire to suck money

from the Linux community

These people have spread some rumors about me and my business activities.

There are also hints (threats) that other even harsher comments will follow.

This is getting very close to slander.

We have never hidden the fact that TLS was NOT a non-profit entity, even

though we treat it as one.  It was only possible to pull off TLS because

Kevin and I subsidised the costs through our consultancy efforts.  Vendor

sponsors paid the bills for us to go to events like LinuxWorld, community

donations paid the phone bill and contributed to equipment purchases, but it

was kevin and I that really paid most of the bills by burying the costs in

the ISP services of our business or our ISP friends.

I am more than offended by these accusations that have been leveled, I am

outraged.

I have no desire to put words into peoples mouths, but I will be happy to

lay the record kevin and I have created before the leadership of the Linux

community.  They know the efforts we have made over the last 7 years, and

they also know how broke we are all the time because of it.  Excuse me, but

if what we have done does not measure up to "paying ones dues" then what

exactly does one need to do, donate an organ to Richard Stallman?

Believe me, this is not just getting flamed on slashdot. I am a big boy and

I cut my teeth on the "chi.internet" newsgroup in the early 90's.  I know

how to and when to have a thick skin.

This is not just the assasination of a persons reputation, but efforts to

destroy the underlying business supporting TLS.  So far at least, it has

taken a direction toward cutting at the base and not attacking TLS directly.

If this effort continues to grow it will have a direct impact on my ability

to pay my bills including my mortgage.  So after seven years of effort on

behalf of the Linux community, this is my reward, I could end up loosing my

home.  What a bunch of assholes.

Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do this, and so

far it is directed toward my personal business contacts.  But some of them

are well enough known in the community that this crap could be believed and

it could escalate.

So, I guess you can understand why I am presently lacking in enthusiasm for

members of the Linux community right at the moment......

Hey, this too will pass.

Yours,

Jeff Gerhardt

--__--__--

Message: 2

From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:41:06 -0400 (EDT)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

To everyone who read the e-mail from Jeff,

I am a relatively new listener to TLS. I found the show less than a year ag=

o, and

have been listening ever since. Because of my schedule, I usually download =

the

show every Wednesday and listen at work.

From today on, I will send a PayPal donation of a dollar every time I downl=

oad the

show. I know it's not much, but if I can inspire anyone to join me, perhaps=

it will

do great good for the future of TLS. I know that, as open source advocates,=

we=20

are all interested in free beer. But in the real world, the generous souls =

providing

that free beer need to rely on the generosity of others.

Regarding all the rumblings about Jeff personally, especially the

"not 100% Linux" stuff:

I think that it is important that we have a moderator who isn't a zealot.

This lends credibility to the show. If it was all a bunch of back-slapping

agreement every Tuesday, only the converted would listen, and I have

a feeling there would be great difficulty getting many of the guests who

Jeff & Co. are able to bring in. Jeff is an open-minded open source

advocate who sees the bigger picture.=20

Think back to your early Linux days. You received that revelation that

open source was the way to go, and saw a glimse of the potential for the

community. You preached to friends and family. The *first* thing you learned

from the mature members of the community was to take a rational approach:

Don't scream "free" every five seconds, and talk about the real-world benef=

its.

You can't walk into your boss's office and say "This is free, so it's bette=

r." You have

to be level-headed, and be credible to the non-converted.=20

TLS gives us a place to come home to every week, to hang out with our

lovable crew of FUD-busting, bad-connection-having, rational-argument-waving

friends. Sometimes there are problems with the audio. Sometimes Doc's calli=

ng

in from the side of a cliff. Sometimes someone is typing and misses a quest=

ion.

Come on -- that's us! That's our geek community. It's nice to know we are n=

ot

alone, even if we're only fooling ourselves, for an hour or two a week.

TLS gives us an organized center for the community. The panel members go out

of their way to contact clueless pundits and others who are bad-mouthing us=

out

in the "real" media. They prompt us to e-mail or call certain people to set=

the

record straight. Without them, who else stands up and responds to attacks on

the open source community? We are a huge, disorganized mass. Attacks by

clueless pundits are absorbed without comment or rebuttal most of the time.

It doesn't hurt us individually, but others hear the misinformation without=

response,

and accept it as true. We need to be organized, and TLS is as good a place =

as

any.  Case in point: TLS 2004-07-13 -- Ken Brown vs. ESR. You all heard the

calm, confident words of Ken Brown, who was very comfortably attacking=20

everything we believe in. People like him talk to our CEOs and CIOs, and=20

convince them.

So to those of you who have full-time jobs, and have enough disposable inco=

me

to buy the overpriced toys at ThinkGeek.com and have a home network superior

to the one at work: Help the guys out, and throw them a buck when you downl=

oad

the show, or even when you listen.

To those of you who have any kind of disagreement with Jeff: Good. Discussi=

on

and debate are good. By hashing these things out in a rational manner we all

learn and grow. Dismissing anyone on face value could mean the loss of a po=

tential

friend and ally. Even worse, it could mean preserving potentially damaging=

=20

ignorance -- theirs or yours.

Thank you all for reading,

Shawn Milochik

ShawnMilo@Runbox.com

--__--__--

Message: 3

From: Curt Howland <Howland@priss.com>

Organization: Acolytes of the Goddess Priss

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:08:43 -0400

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

On Tuesday 12 October 2004 00:07, jeff@thelinuxshow.com was heard to

say:

> Sorry about the length of this......

Sorry it had to happen at all. I, for one, have no problem with you

getting personal when it's time to get personal. It certainly sounds

like such a time.

Sorry to hear about the injuries, do take the time to heal and heal

well. Even really good software isn't worth losing your health.

> SUN Microsystems for one has

> not paid a commitment that they made in December of 2003.

...and...

> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once...

I'm forseeing losing my house too, it's been a lesson to get

everything in writing. A vendor can only pull this kind of crap if

their offer/agreement wasn't in writing. Being a nice guy feels good

and it's wonderful that we're all one big happy family. But as has

been said many times and many ways, "Business is Business."

> Many

> are jealous because they are smarter than me and infact know far

> more about Linux than I do and resent the public profile we have

> developed at TLS.

The actual smart ones recognize the benefits of the "Division of

Labor" and, as ESR for example has done, benefit themselves, the

community and TLS by utilizing what you have built in a positive way.

Envy is a nasty, destructive vice. The people who indulge themselves

in it deserve the ulcers and contempt they receive.

Speaking of contempt, have you considered creating a "deadbeat" page

for...no, petty retaliation isn't nice either.

> To the point.  Over the last month or two there have been a handful

> of people in the Linux community that have been attacking me

> personaly and have concluded that I do not measure up to their

> standard of what a proper Linux Advocate should be.

Thereby demonstrating that they are not part of any "community". If

the accusations have been public, reprinting them wouldn't be slander

or liable... :^)

> I am more than offended by these accusations that have been

> leveled, I am outraged.

I have only listened to a dozen shows, having come in late for the

game, but it didn't take long to recognize that any such accusations

are absurd on their face.

> I have no desire to put words into peoples mouths, but I will be

> happy to lay the record kevin and I have created before the

> leadership of the Linux community.

This may be the one drawback of anarchy, there is no Grand Poobah to

fall back on. There is only reputation, renown and track record.

Jeff, your track record is available for anyone to see.

> Excuse me, but if what we have done does

> not measure up to "paying ones dues" then what exactly does one

> need to do, donate an organ to Richard Stallman?

Envy is not reason, it is not reasonable. It is blind egotistical

emotion and cannot be countered argued with.

> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do

> this, and so far it is directed toward my personal business

> contacts.  But some of them are well enough known in the community

> that this crap could be believed and it could escalate.

That "deadbeats" page is sounding better and better...

> Hey, this too will pass.

Such is the way of all things, but all that follows only exists

because of what has come before. Your efforts have not been wasted.

> Yours,

> Jeff Gerhardt

Peace, may your aim never waver,

Curt-

--

September 11th, 2001

The proudest day for gun control and central

planning advocates in American history

--__--__--

Message: 4

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:47:29 +0200 (CEST)

From: "Robert M. Stockmann" <stock@stokkie.net>

To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

Cc: TLS Staff <staff@thelinuxshow.com>

Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)

Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 jeff@thelinuxshow.com wrote:

First off Jeff,

Don't quit as master host for The Linux Show, don't you get it?

That is exactly what certain people want to happen! I warned you

before to not do business with that dude like Mister Brown from

The Toxigue Institute. These organisations are just front-offices

for Microsoft en other Software-Industrial Complex Interests.

Aspecially now, in these diffecult times, you need to step one

step further. As for a decent colo for your audio casting, checkout

M2KTALK.COM.

> Sorry about the length of this......

>

> A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff):

>

> First, for those of you who are regular listeners to The Linux Show, you

> are somewhat aware of the trama we are having with our COLO provider

> going broke. 

Go find out what really happened, you will be surprised.

> We are in the process of a three step transition.  We are

> moving to a temporary location while we continue to look for what we

> believe are more affordable digs.  Because of this move we are way

> behind in our show expansion process of re-launching The Linux daily.

> But, as of last week we have a green light from our New Zealand based

> edition of TLS.  With luck we should have that show up in the next few

> days (so Dave get your butt in gear).

>

> We also warned you that the complications of this shuffle of resources

> will bump us off line from time to time.  Tomorrow night is one of those

> cases and we will not be doing a webcast.  I will try to get back from

> Chicago as soon as I can and do an IRC edition of the show.  It is probable

> that I will not be back from Chicago till 8:00pm to 9:00pm cdt.  Please feel

> free to hang out, and I will join you as soon as I can.

> *************************************************************

> The second issue is in reference to my participation on TLS in the future.

> I have not talked this over with Kevin as of yet, and I will not make a

> final choice until he and I have talked it over in detail, but it is

> possible that I may be stepping down as the lead man on TLS and moving onto

> another project.  My reasons for considering this option are numerous, but I

> do have two chief reasons.

>

> The first reason is financial.  We have been trying our best to launch

> Geekcast as a multishow network to try to defray the cost of doing The Linux

> Show.  For those of you who do not know (and you would have to be under a

> rock to not know) we do not charge vendors to appear on the show even though

> they consume our resources. 

Your casting material and its archives is of the most high value.

Start selling it. Also when you visit Linuxworld and other Linux and OSS

expo's and meetings, take the "camera team" with ya. And make DVD's of

that material, which are for sale. Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?

>

> Lets be honest.  A 40 minute segment on TLS is a sweet deal for a vendor to

> tell a very specific and detailed story to members of the community.  Its

> good for the vendor, and its good for the community.  But it is expensive to

> produce when the vendors (in general), do not sponsor as much as they did in

> the 1997 through 2003 time frame.  The truth be told, IBM will not sponsor

> us because we are to small in terms of dollars for their Ad department

> people to even consider.

>

> So, when we do get vendor sponsors that also happen to be good member of the

> linux community, we are pretty thrilled with those vendors.  IDG in

> particular has been near saint like in my eyes for their support.

>

> Our present financial problem is that in ways success is killing us.  More

> people listen, costs go up, and revenue has not kept pace with the demand.

>

> As you all know, we also do not demand for you the listeners to pay to

> listen, although I am sure some of you feel we ask for donations to often.

> Did you know there are listeners who have donated well over $500.00 over the

> years; 20 here and 50 there.  The truth is, we have gotten almost as much in

> listener donations over the years than from the vendors.  This has not just

> kept us on the air, but has made it possible for us to remain insolated from

> the vendors.

>

> This problem was further increased by a number of vendor sponsors who simply

> have not paid their bill. SUN Microsystems for one has not paid a commitment

> that they made in December of 2003.  They were supposed to be one of our

> major sponsors for us to go to LinuxWorld last January.  The good news is

> that the SUN keyboards did show up to our stage.  The bad news is they never

> paid the bill for the things that cost us money.  We delivered on the

> promotion and advertising, but they never paid the bill.

>

> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once this year, and

> we are now looking at a total of nearly $18,000.00 in uncollected revenue

> that was supposed to pay our costs to the last two LinuxWorld expos.  I am

> not going to give the name of the other vendors, as I have the hope that

> some will still pay.  I will give you a hint on one, it is a major partner

> in the Novell community (but NOT Novell's fault for sure).

>

> But, we have given up on SUN ever paying.

>

> I want everyone who is a listener to take note of the number of times that

> SUN has been on our show since last January.  Even though SUN has abused

> TLS, we have continued to have them on the show because there was

> information that the community needed to know about SUN and it needed to be

> delivered in a fair and unbiased way.  That was more important than our

> "business" relationship with SUN.  It is sort of funny when you consider SUN

> got nearly 2 billion from Microsoft and they could not seem to pay their

> "tls" bill.  We have given up on collecting this as SUNs "community" rep is

> now denying that she ever made the commitment.  Funny that they got all that

> art work and ad copy to me for ads they never booked?????

>

> What companies like SUN ( and their community reps) do not realize is that

> we use the commitments they make on advertising and trade show sponsorships

> to pay our bills on attending and broadcasting from those same trade shows.

> So, even though SUN may not pay a bill, does not mean that WE (TLS) do not

> spend that money.  We budgeted based upon the commitments people have made

> to us.  So, if people do not pay their bills on the commitments they make,

> those costs end up comming out of the pocket of the owners of TLS; in other

> words, Kevin and I.

>

> To be fair to the vendor sponsors, not all of our present problem are all

> their fault.  We do have the NOC thing happening and we were recently over

> charged at the most recent LinuxWorld in August an almost unbelievable

> amount of money by a couple of the expo service companies.  We will probably

> have to go to court to get it back, which means a lawyer will get most of

> it. 

Do not pay these sleazebags... They are a bunch of currupt swindlers. I have

prove of that here. They even tried to frame my small company to buy a stand

at LinuxWorld Expo to be held in October 2004. Guess what? After i just said,

"no dudes i pass", I found out there never was a LinuxWorld Expo planned here

in Holland!

>

> The irony is our business model of balancing sponsors and community

> donations has worked and worked well.  We have been able to build a very

> remarkable network room full of equipment.  Up to February of this year, all

> that equipment was paid for with no debt and our model was keeping up with

> expenses for the most part.

>

> So, taking all these issues into consideration, the NOC move, the bad debts

> from advertisers, the overcharges at Linuxworld and growth outpacing

> community donations; 2004 has turned into a truely sucky year.  We started

> 2004 in the best financial shape in the history of TLS, we are 3/4s through

> the year and we are nearing the worst year in our history.  Talk about a

> crappy turn of events.

>

> This alone is enough of a pisser to make me want to step away from the show

> and focus on trying to dig us out of debt.

>

> If you listen to the show regularly I hope that you can hear in my voice the

> passion I feel about our community of listeners and the Open Source

> community as a whole.  I do not always agree with one or another of the

> other people on the panel about something specific, but what we all share is

> that passion. And in the last few weeks I am having trouble finding that

> passion, and that is the major reason why I am considering stepping aside.

>

> The financial stuff aside, 2004 has been a hard year.  I have not had real

> great health the last year or so, and that was compounded by an accident I

> recently had that is hampering my ability to get around.  I was really

> significantly better by August and thought I had all the issues finally

> licked. 

Don't eat and refuse to eat fast food. When eating food make sure that

it contains genuine original salt, genuine original pepper and genuine

original sugar. Start cooking simple meals for yourself. You will be

amazed how fast you will recover. Only eat food created from genuine

materials.

>

> That is until I had the accident in September.  This has crushed my spirits

> because it is now apparent that I can not attend ISPCON in November.  If you

> are a regular you know that I am even more of an ISP guy then an Linux Guy.

> I am facinated with Open Source and believe in it.  But, I LOVE the

> Internet, I defend it like a child and have worked in it or around it for

> the last 25 years.  I am sure I could have found sponsor money to go, but

> the body says no.

>

> I have hidden these health related issues from the listeners because, and do

> not take this wrong, its my business and not the publics business.

>

> ********************************************************************

> OK the financial and health aside, that may still not be a good reason to

> leave the show.  I still sound OK, afterall it is radio and you can not tell

> how much weight I have gained over the last 2 years..... 

See above. Do not eat framed food.

>

> Truth be told, I love TLS and would keep doing it as I think it is not only

> the most important thing I do each week, but is also the most fun.  So, why

> stop?

>

> Well it is simple, I am pissed off.  There are people in the Linux community

> that have never liked me for one reason or another.  Many are jealous

> because they are smarter than me and infact know far more about Linux than I

> do and resent the public profile we have developed at TLS.  Others hate me

> because I am not GPL enough for their views.  I think the GPL is a great

> license, but I do not limit open source to one license.  And others hate me

> because they are techno bigots.  I work at an ISP and so support MAC, Linux

> and Microsoft.  That is the real world baby.  So, sometimes I am on a Linux

> Box and sometimes I am on a MAC box and sometimes I am even on a windows

> box.  In fact at the college I teach at, out of about 700 PC and servers,

> there are only a handful of linux systems present, most under my control.

>

> Again, if you are a regular, you know that I often use my daughters PC

> during the show because it is next to the fridge, and so next to the

> Guinness (and food).  This PC also happens to be a very very very old Win 98

> machine that is so old and finiky that it is not worth the trouble to make a

> dual boot.  The box has to be win, because of the software my daughter uses

> for school.  I have recently gotten a Win4Lin license for this box but have

> yet to install it.  Oh evil and bad me.

>

> To the point.  Over the last month or two there have been a handful of

> people in the Linux community that have been attacking me personaly and have

> concluded that I do not measure up to their standard of what a proper Linux

> Advocate should be.

>

> These people have descided to try to assasinate my personal and business

> reputation as well as discounting any of the efforts that I have made on

> behalf of the community as less than valid.

>

> These people have accused me of trying to unfairly use people in the LUG

> community.

>

> These people have accused me of some supposed nefarious desire to suck money

> from the Linux community

>

> These people have spread some rumors about me and my business activities.

> There are also hints (threats) that other even harsher comments will follow.

> This is getting very close to slander.

>

> We have never hidden the fact that TLS was NOT a non-profit entity, even

> though we treat it as one.  It was only possible to pull off TLS because

> Kevin and I subsidised the costs through our consultancy efforts.  Vendor

> sponsors paid the bills for us to go to events like LinuxWorld, community

> donations paid the phone bill and contributed to equipment purchases, but it

> was kevin and I that really paid most of the bills by burying the costs in

> the ISP services of our business or our ISP friends.

>

> I am more than offended by these accusations that have been leveled, I am

> outraged.

>

> I have no desire to put words into peoples mouths, but I will be happy to

> lay the record kevin and I have created before the leadership of the Linux

> community.  They know the efforts we have made over the last 7 years, and

> they also know how broke we are all the time because of it.  Excuse me, but

> if what we have done does not measure up to "paying ones dues" then what

> exactly does one need to do, donate an organ to Richard Stallman?

>

> Believe me, this is not just getting flamed on slashdot. I am a big boy and

> I cut my teeth on the "chi.internet" newsgroup in the early 90's.  I know

> how to and when to have a thick skin.

>

> This is not just the assasination of a persons reputation, but efforts to

> destroy the underlying business supporting TLS.  So far at least, it has

> taken a direction toward cutting at the base and not attacking TLS directly.

> If this effort continues to grow it will have a direct impact on my ability

> to pay my bills including my mortgage.  So after seven years of effort on

> behalf of the Linux community, this is my reward, I could end up loosing my

> home.  What a bunch of assholes.

>

> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do this, and so

> far it is directed toward my personal business contacts.  But some of them

> are well enough known in the community that this crap could be believed and

> it could escalate.

>

> So, I guess you can understand why I am presently lacking in enthusiasm for

> members of the Linux community right at the moment......

>

> Hey, this too will pass. 

After reading all this, the only true real warriors remain standing.

Jeff get your ass up, and improve your health, and teach em a lesson!

Regards,

Robert

--

Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE

Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist

crashrecovery.org  stock@stokkie.net

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