Message: 2
From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
To everyone who read the e-mail from Jeff,
I am a relatively new listener to TLS. I found the show less than a year ag=
o, and
have been listening ever since. Because of my schedule, I usually download =
the
show every Wednesday and listen at work.
From today on, I will send a PayPal donation of a dollar every time I downl=
oad the
show. I know it's not much, but if I can inspire anyone to join me, perhaps=
it will
do great good for the future of TLS. I know that, as open source advocates,=
we=20
are all interested in free beer. But in the real world, the generous souls =
providing
that free beer need to rely on the generosity of others.
Regarding all the rumblings about Jeff personally, especially the
"not 100% Linux" stuff:
I think that it is important that we have a moderator who isn't a zealot.
This lends credibility to the show. If it was all a bunch of back-slapping
agreement every Tuesday, only the converted would listen, and I have
a feeling there would be great difficulty getting many of the guests who
Jeff & Co. are able to bring in. Jeff is an open-minded open source
advocate who sees the bigger picture.=20
Think back to your early Linux days. You received that revelation that
open source was the way to go, and saw a glimse of the potential for the
community. You preached to friends and family. The *first* thing you learned
from the mature members of the community was to take a rational approach:
Don't scream "free" every five seconds, and talk about the real-world benef=
its.
You can't walk into your boss's office and say "This is free, so it's bette=
r." You have
to be level-headed, and be credible to the non-converted.=20
TLS gives us a place to come home to every week, to hang out with our
lovable crew of FUD-busting, bad-connection-having, rational-argument-waving
friends. Sometimes there are problems with the audio. Sometimes Doc's calli=
ng
in from the side of a cliff. Sometimes someone is typing and misses a quest=
ion.
Come on -- that's us! That's our geek community. It's nice to know we are n=
ot
alone, even if we're only fooling ourselves, for an hour or two a week.
TLS gives us an organized center for the community. The panel members go out
of their way to contact clueless pundits and others who are bad-mouthing us=
out
in the "real" media. They prompt us to e-mail or call certain people to set=
the
record straight. Without them, who else stands up and responds to attacks on
the open source community? We are a huge, disorganized mass. Attacks by
clueless pundits are absorbed without comment or rebuttal most of the time.
It doesn't hurt us individually, but others hear the misinformation without=
response,
and accept it as true. We need to be organized, and TLS is as good a place =
as
any. Case in point: TLS 2004-07-13 -- Ken Brown vs. ESR. You all heard the
calm, confident words of Ken Brown, who was very comfortably attacking=20
everything we believe in. People like him talk to our CEOs and CIOs, and=20
convince them.
So to those of you who have full-time jobs, and have enough disposable inco=
me
to buy the overpriced toys at ThinkGeek.com and have a home network superior
to the one at work: Help the guys out, and throw them a buck when you downl=
oad
the show, or even when you listen.
To those of you who have any kind of disagreement with Jeff: Good. Discussi=
on
and debate are good. By hashing these things out in a rational manner we all
learn and grow. Dismissing anyone on face value could mean the loss of a po=
tential
friend and ally. Even worse, it could mean preserving potentially damaging=
=20
ignorance -- theirs or yours.
Thank you all for reading,
Shawn Milochik
ShawnMilo@Runbox.com
--__--__--
Message: 3
From: Curt Howland <Howland@priss.com>
Organization: Acolytes of the Goddess Priss
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:08:43 -0400
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 00:07, jeff@thelinuxshow.com was heard to
say:
> Sorry about the length of this......
Sorry it had to happen at all. I, for one, have no problem with you
getting personal when it's time to get personal. It certainly sounds
like such a time.
Sorry to hear about the injuries, do take the time to heal and heal
well. Even really good software isn't worth losing your health.
> SUN Microsystems for one has
> not paid a commitment that they made in December of 2003.
...and...
> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once...
I'm forseeing losing my house too, it's been a lesson to get
everything in writing. A vendor can only pull this kind of crap if
their offer/agreement wasn't in writing. Being a nice guy feels good
and it's wonderful that we're all one big happy family. But as has
been said many times and many ways, "Business is Business."
> Many
> are jealous because they are smarter than me and infact know far
> more about Linux than I do and resent the public profile we have
> developed at TLS.
The actual smart ones recognize the benefits of the "Division of
Labor" and, as ESR for example has done, benefit themselves, the
community and TLS by utilizing what you have built in a positive way.
Envy is a nasty, destructive vice. The people who indulge themselves
in it deserve the ulcers and contempt they receive.
Speaking of contempt, have you considered creating a "deadbeat" page
for...no, petty retaliation isn't nice either.
> To the point. Over the last month or two there have been a handful
> of people in the Linux community that have been attacking me
> personaly and have concluded that I do not measure up to their
> standard of what a proper Linux Advocate should be.
Thereby demonstrating that they are not part of any "community". If
the accusations have been public, reprinting them wouldn't be slander
or liable... :^)
> I am more than offended by these accusations that have been
> leveled, I am outraged.
I have only listened to a dozen shows, having come in late for the
game, but it didn't take long to recognize that any such accusations
are absurd on their face.
> I have no desire to put words into peoples mouths, but I will be
> happy to lay the record kevin and I have created before the
> leadership of the Linux community.
This may be the one drawback of anarchy, there is no Grand Poobah to
fall back on. There is only reputation, renown and track record.
Jeff, your track record is available for anyone to see.
> Excuse me, but if what we have done does
> not measure up to "paying ones dues" then what exactly does one
> need to do, donate an organ to Richard Stallman?
Envy is not reason, it is not reasonable. It is blind egotistical
emotion and cannot be countered argued with.
> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do
> this, and so far it is directed toward my personal business
> contacts. But some of them are well enough known in the community
> that this crap could be believed and it could escalate.
That "deadbeats" page is sounding better and better...
> Hey, this too will pass.
Such is the way of all things, but all that follows only exists
because of what has come before. Your efforts have not been wasted.
> Yours,
> Jeff Gerhardt
Peace, may your aim never waver,
Curt-
--
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central
planning advocates in American history
--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:47:29 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Robert M. Stockmann" <stock@stokkie.net>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Cc: TLS Staff <staff@thelinuxshow.com>
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 jeff@thelinuxshow.com wrote:
First off Jeff,
Don't quit as master host for The Linux Show, don't you get it?
That is exactly what certain people want to happen! I warned you
before to not do business with that dude like Mister Brown from
The Toxigue Institute. These organisations are just front-offices
for Microsoft en other Software-Industrial Complex Interests.
Aspecially now, in these diffecult times, you need to step one
step further. As for a decent colo for your audio casting, checkout
M2KTALK.COM.
> Sorry about the length of this......
>
> A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff):
>
> First, for those of you who are regular listeners to The Linux Show, you
> are somewhat aware of the trama we are having with our COLO provider
> going broke.
Go find out what really happened, you will be surprised.
> We are in the process of a three step transition. We are
> moving to a temporary location while we continue to look for what we
> believe are more affordable digs. Because of this move we are way
> behind in our show expansion process of re-launching The Linux daily.
> But, as of last week we have a green light from our New Zealand based
> edition of TLS. With luck we should have that show up in the next few
> days (so Dave get your butt in gear).
>
> We also warned you that the complications of this shuffle of resources
> will bump us off line from time to time. Tomorrow night is one of those
> cases and we will not be doing a webcast. I will try to get back from
> Chicago as soon as I can and do an IRC edition of the show. It is probable
> that I will not be back from Chicago till 8:00pm to 9:00pm cdt. Please feel
> free to hang out, and I will join you as soon as I can.
> *************************************************************
> The second issue is in reference to my participation on TLS in the future.
> I have not talked this over with Kevin as of yet, and I will not make a
> final choice until he and I have talked it over in detail, but it is
> possible that I may be stepping down as the lead man on TLS and moving onto
> another project. My reasons for considering this option are numerous, but I
> do have two chief reasons.
>
> The first reason is financial. We have been trying our best to launch
> Geekcast as a multishow network to try to defray the cost of doing The Linux
> Show. For those of you who do not know (and you would have to be under a
> rock to not know) we do not charge vendors to appear on the show even though
> they consume our resources.
Your casting material and its archives is of the most high value.
Start selling it. Also when you visit Linuxworld and other Linux and OSS
expo's and meetings, take the "camera team" with ya. And make DVD's of
that material, which are for sale. Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?
>
> Lets be honest. A 40 minute segment on TLS is a sweet deal for a vendor to
> tell a very specific and detailed story to members of the community. Its
> good for the vendor, and its good for the community. But it is expensive to
> produce when the vendors (in general), do not sponsor as much as they did in
> the 1997 through 2003 time frame. The truth be told, IBM will not sponsor
> us because we are to small in terms of dollars for their Ad department
> people to even consider.
>
> So, when we do get vendor sponsors that also happen to be good member of the
> linux community, we are pretty thrilled with those vendors. IDG in
> particular has been near saint like in my eyes for their support.
>
> Our present financial problem is that in ways success is killing us. More
> people listen, costs go up, and revenue has not kept pace with the demand.
>
> As you all know, we also do not demand for you the listeners to pay to
> listen, although I am sure some of you feel we ask for donations to often.
> Did you know there are listeners who have donated well over $500.00 over the
> years; 20 here and 50 there. The truth is, we have gotten almost as much in
> listener donations over the years than from the vendors. This has not just
> kept us on the air, but has made it possible for us to remain insolated from
> the vendors.
>
> This problem was further increased by a number of vendor sponsors who simply
> have not paid their bill. SUN Microsystems for one has not paid a commitment
> that they made in December of 2003. They were supposed to be one of our
> major sponsors for us to go to LinuxWorld last January. The good news is
> that the SUN keyboards did show up to our stage. The bad news is they never
> paid the bill for the things that cost us money. We delivered on the
> promotion and advertising, but they never paid the bill.
>
> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once this year, and
> we are now looking at a total of nearly $18,000.00 in uncollected revenue
> that was supposed to pay our costs to the last two LinuxWorld expos. I am
> not going to give the name of the other vendors, as I have the hope that
> some will still pay. I will give you a hint on one, it is a major partner
> in the Novell community (but NOT Novell's fault for sure).
>
> But, we have given up on SUN ever paying.
>
> I want everyone who is a listener to take note of the number of times that
> SUN has been on our show since last January. Even though SUN has abused
> TLS, we have continued to have them on the show because there was
> information that the community needed to know about SUN and it needed to be
> delivered in a fair and unbiased way. That was more important than our
> "business" relationship with SUN. It is sort of funny when you consider SUN
> got nearly 2 billion from Microsoft and they could not seem to pay their
> "tls" bill. We have given up on collecting this as SUNs "community" rep is
> now denying that she ever made the commitment. Funny that they got all that
> art work and ad copy to me for ads they never booked?????
>
> What companies like SUN ( and their community reps) do not realize is that
> we use the commitments they make on advertising and trade show sponsorships
> to pay our bills on attending and broadcasting from those same trade shows.
> So, even though SUN may not pay a bill, does not mean that WE (TLS) do not
> spend that money. We budgeted based upon the commitments people have made
> to us. So, if people do not pay their bills on the commitments they make,
> those costs end up comming out of the pocket of the owners of TLS; in other
> words, Kevin and I.
>
> To be fair to the vendor sponsors, not all of our present problem are all
> their fault. We do have the NOC thing happening and we were recently over
> charged at the most recent LinuxWorld in August an almost unbelievable
> amount of money by a couple of the expo service companies. We will probably
> have to go to court to get it back, which means a lawyer will get most of
> it.
Do not pay these sleazebags... They are a bunch of currupt swindlers. I have
prove of that here. They even tried to frame my small company to buy a stand
at LinuxWorld Expo to be held in October 2004. Guess what? After i just said,
"no dudes i pass", I found out there never was a LinuxWorld Expo planned here
in Holland!
>
> The irony is our business model of balancing sponsors and community
> donations has worked and worked well. We have been able to build a very
> remarkable network room full of equipment. Up to February of this year, all
> that equipment was paid for with no debt and our model was keeping up with
> expenses for the most part.
>
> So, taking all these issues into consideration, the NOC move, the bad debts
> from advertisers, the overcharges at Linuxworld and growth outpacing
> community donations; 2004 has turned into a truely sucky year. We started
> 2004 in the best financial shape in the history of TLS, we are 3/4s through
> the year and we are nearing the worst year in our history. Talk about a
> crappy turn of events.
>
> This alone is enough of a pisser to make me want to step away from the show
> and focus on trying to dig us out of debt.
>
> If you listen to the show regularly I hope that you can hear in my voice the
> passion I feel about our community of listeners and the Open Source
> community as a whole. I do not always agree with one or another of the
> other people on the panel about something specific, but what we all share is
> that passion. And in the last few weeks I am having trouble finding that
> passion, and that is the major reason why I am considering stepping aside.
>
> The financial stuff aside, 2004 has been a hard year. I have not had real
> great health the last year or so, and that was compounded by an accident I
> recently had that is hampering my ability to get around. I was really
> significantly better by August and thought I had all the issues finally
> licked.
Don't eat and refuse to eat fast food. When eating food make sure that
it contains genuine original salt, genuine original pepper and genuine
original sugar. Start cooking simple meals for yourself. You will be
amazed how fast you will recover. Only eat food created from genuine
materials.
>
> That is until I had the accident in September. This has crushed my spirits
> because it is now apparent that I can not attend ISPCON in November. If you
> are a regular you know that I am even more of an ISP guy then an Linux Guy.
> I am facinated with Open Source and believe in it. But, I LOVE the
> Internet, I defend it like a child and have worked in it or around it for
> the last 25 years. I am sure I could have found sponsor money to go, but
> the body says no.
>
> I have hidden these health related issues from the listeners because, and do
> not take this wrong, its my business and not the publics business.
>
> ********************************************************************
> OK the financial and health aside, that may still not be a good reason to
> leave the show. I still sound OK, afterall it is radio and you can not tell
> how much weight I have gained over the last 2 years.....
See above. Do not eat framed food.
>
> Truth be told, I love TLS and would keep doing it as I think it is not only
> the most important thing I do each week, but is also the most fun. So, why
> stop?
>
> Well it is simple, I am pissed off. There are people in the Linux community
> that have never liked me for one reason or another. Many are jealous
> because they are smarter than me and infact know far more about Linux than I
> do and resent the public profile we have developed at TLS. Others hate me
> because I am not GPL enough for their views. I think the GPL is a great
> license, but I do not limit open source to one license. And others hate me
> because they are techno bigots. I work at an ISP and so support MAC, Linux
> and Microsoft. That is the real world baby. So, sometimes I am on a Linux
> Box and sometimes I am on a MAC box and sometimes I am even on a windows
> box. In fact at the college I teach at, out of about 700 PC and servers,
> there are only a handful of linux systems present, most under my control.
>
> Again, if you are a regular, you know that I often use my daughters PC
> during the show because it is next to the fridge, and so next to the
> Guinness (and food). This PC also happens to be a very very very old Win 98
> machine that is so old and finiky that it is not worth the trouble to make a
> dual boot. The box has to be win, because of the software my daughter uses
> for school. I have recently gotten a Win4Lin license for this box but have
> yet to install it. Oh evil and bad me.
>
> To the point. Over the last month or two there have been a handful of
> people in the Linux community that have been attacking me personaly and have
> concluded that I do not measure up to their standard of what a proper Linux
> Advocate should be.
>
> These people have descided to try to assasinate my personal and business
> reputation as well as discounting any of the efforts that I have made on
> behalf of the community as less than valid.
>
> These people have accused me of trying to unfairly use people in the LUG
> community.
>
> These people have accused me of some supposed nefarious desire to suck money
> from the Linux community
>
> These people have spread some rumors about me and my business activities.
> There are also hints (threats) that other even harsher comments will follow.
> This is getting very close to slander.
>
> We have never hidden the fact that TLS was NOT a non-profit entity, even
> though we treat it as one. It was only possible to pull off TLS because
> Kevin and I subsidised the costs through our consultancy efforts. Vendor
> sponsors paid the bills for us to go to events like LinuxWorld, community
> donations paid the phone bill and contributed to equipment purchases, but it
> was kevin and I that really paid most of the bills by burying the costs in
> the ISP services of our business or our ISP friends.
>
> I am more than offended by these accusations that have been leveled, I am
> outraged.
>
> I have no desire to put words into peoples mouths, but I will be happy to
> lay the record kevin and I have created before the leadership of the Linux
> community. They know the efforts we have made over the last 7 years, and
> they also know how broke we are all the time because of it. Excuse me, but
> if what we have done does not measure up to "paying ones dues" then what
> exactly does one need to do, donate an organ to Richard Stallman?
>
> Believe me, this is not just getting flamed on slashdot. I am a big boy and
> I cut my teeth on the "chi.internet" newsgroup in the early 90's. I know
> how to and when to have a thick skin.
>
> This is not just the assasination of a persons reputation, but efforts to
> destroy the underlying business supporting TLS. So far at least, it has
> taken a direction toward cutting at the base and not attacking TLS directly.
> If this effort continues to grow it will have a direct impact on my ability
> to pay my bills including my mortgage. So after seven years of effort on
> behalf of the Linux community, this is my reward, I could end up loosing my
> home. What a bunch of assholes.
>
> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do this, and so
> far it is directed toward my personal business contacts. But some of them
> are well enough known in the community that this crap could be believed and
> it could escalate.
>
> So, I guess you can understand why I am presently lacking in enthusiasm for
> members of the Linux community right at the moment......
>
> Hey, this too will pass.
After reading all this, the only true real warriors remain standing.
Jeff get your ass up, and improve your health, and teach em a lesson!
Regards,
Robert
--
Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE
Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist
crashrecovery.org stock@stokkie.net
--__--__--
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