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Today's Topics:
1. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Curt Howland)
2. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Shawn Milo)
3. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Thomas Terry)
4. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Daniel Taylor)
5. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Shawn Milo)
6. update: (Jeff)
7. Re: A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff) (Paul Eggleton)
8. about TLS (David Farning)
9. Re: about TLS (Robert M. Stockmann)
10. Re: about TLS (Shawn Milo)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: Curt Howland <Howland@priss.com>
Organization: Acolytes of the Goddess Priss
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:27:36 -0400
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,
logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to
say:
> Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?
--
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central
planning advocates in American history
--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:56:44 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Naah. I'd much rather give them a dollar straight out than spend $16 or wha=
tever
on an over-priced shirt or mug, knowing that most of the money goes other p=
laces
than supporting TLS.=20
I would, however, pay a small subscription fee to TLS, like a monthly or an=
nual=20
recurring charge on a credit card. I think PayPal supports something along =
those
lines. A voluntary system like this, with the proper support from the commu=
nity
which loves TLS, could pay the phone bill pretty easily, even if only those=
of us
with a full-time income chipped in.=20
Shawn
> That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,=20
> logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?
>=20
> On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to=20
> say:
> > Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?
>=20
> --=20
> September 11th, 2001
> The proudest day for gun control and central=20
> planning advocates in American history
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TheLinuxShow mailing list
> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
>=20
>=20
--__--__--
Message: 3
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:04:12 -0400
From: "Thomas Terry" <tterry@wowway.com>
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
I agree...I would pay a monthly fee to keep the show in good shape
and on the air...but if the show did get enough of the profits, I'd buy
logo'd merch too...
Tom T
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:56:44 -0400 (EDT), Shawn Milo
<ShawnMilo@runbox.com> wrote:
> Naah. I'd much rather give them a dollar straight out than spend $16 or
> whatever
> on an over-priced shirt or mug, knowing that most of the money goes
> other places
> than supporting TLS.
>
> I would, however, pay a small subscription fee to TLS, like a monthly or
> annual
> recurring charge on a credit card. I think PayPal supports something
> along those
> lines. A voluntary system like this, with the proper support from the
> community
> which loves TLS, could pay the phone bill pretty easily, even if only
> those of us
> with a full-time income chipped in.
>
> Shawn
>
>> That's a very good point. Does it cost much to put a few bits of, ah,
>> logo'd stuff on Cafe Press?
>>
>> On Tuesday 12 October 2004 12:47, Robert M. Stockmann was heard to
>> say:
>> > Oh and where are the TLS gadgets?
>>
>> --
>> September 11th, 2001
>> The proudest day for gun control and central
>> planning advocates in American history
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TheLinuxShow mailing list
>> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
>> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TheLinuxShow mailing list
> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
>
--
--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:24:03 +0100
From: Daniel Taylor <daniel.taylor@danielt.com>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Hey,
This might be an unpopular idea but maybe it's time to stop the LIVE
show and switch to a podcasting way of doing things, record the show
the day before, edit and release (using bittorrent).
Even if you don't use torrent this way will still allow you to cut
down file sizes, you could edit out that starting and ending music
and cut the break, file's would be smaller (less bandwidth used,
less $$) and you would not have the cost of streaming live.
This way you can use all your income from ads can go to paying the
phone bill (which you can cut using VOIP) and trips, thus giving a
better show because you can actually afford to go to the places you
want (and sound quality may be a bit better than it is now with VOIP).
OR... keep the live show just for paying people (with free d/l's of
mp3's still), probably a very unpopular idea, but i thought i would
suggest it anyway.
- Dan
--
Daniel J. Taylor
GPG Public Key - http://www.danielt.com/public.key
--__--__--
Message: 5
From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:49:59 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Cutting out the live show would do the show in, I believe.
First of all, it's a great thrill to be in the IRC live during the show.
Second of all, the IRC adds to the show, because the panel sometimes
takes questions and comments from the IRC. Thirdly, the fact that the
show has a definite time and place, Tuesday night on thelinuxshow.com,
makes it an event. It's something people look forward to. There won't be
the same anticipation waiting for the download link to appear, and some
listener enthusiasm will wane.
Limiting the show to paying customers would also kill the show.
1. The (live) listener base would drop by probably over 95%.
2. Advertisers will be less inclined to support the show with
such a small listener base. Bye bye phone bill payments.
3. Technical requirements to make sure that paying customers
have no problem connecting, and others can't get in. Will cost
money up-front and require more maintenence. Poor Kevin.
4. It's un-TLS-like to do something like that to the community.
Shawn
> Hey,
>=20
> This might be an unpopular idea but maybe it's time to stop the LIVE=20
> show and switch to a podcasting way of doing things, record the show=20
> the day before, edit and release (using bittorrent).
>=20
> Even if you don't use torrent this way will still allow you to cut=20
> down file sizes, you could edit out that starting and ending music=20
> and cut the break, file's would be smaller (less bandwidth used,=20
> less $$) and you would not have the cost of streaming live.
>=20
> This way you can use all your income from ads can go to paying the=20
> phone bill (which you can cut using VOIP) and trips, thus giving a=20
> better show because you can actually afford to go to the places you=20
> want (and sound quality may be a bit better than it is now with VOIP).
>=20
> OR... keep the live show just for paying people (with free d/l's of=20
> mp3's still), probably a very unpopular idea, but i thought i would=20
> suggest it anyway.
>=20
>=20
> - Dan
>=20
> --=20
> Daniel J. Taylor
> GPG Public Key - http://www.danielt.com/public.key
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TheLinuxShow mailing list
> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
>=20
>=20
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:57:28 -0500
From: Jeff <jeff@ibssnet.com>
To: "thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com" <thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com>,
Linux Show Staff <staff@thelinuxshow.com>
Subject: [Thelinuxshow] update:
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
I am leaving Chicago now so will not be on IRC till about 9:55 tonight cdt.
Also as a follow up to some of the comments that have been given to me
over the last 24 hours, I would like to thank the listeners for their
support.
I would also like to clear up one thing that has been bothering me.
In my comments from last night I kept on referencing the efforts that
kevin and I have made over the last 7 years. Someone could interpret
that comment thinking that I have not fully appreciated the efforts made
by Doc Searls, Russ Pavlicek and Arne flones. Just in case someone
thinks that, I want to short cut any comment by saying that TLS would
not exist at all without the timly support of these three gentlemen.
They have been part of the backbone of the show emotionally as well as
participating week after week. Keep in mind that no one has earned a
dime of payroll by being on TLS, it has been a volunteer effort. This
has made it possible for us to have an informed respected panel, that is
no influanced by the whim of sponsors. They have all done it for the
good of the community and because we have formed a tight bond of
friendship. I suppose now it is appropriate to add Eric Raymonds name
to the ledger as well.
For those of you who have not been with us since the very early days, I
would also like to mention two other names; Chris Kolar and PJ Hyatt.
During the 1998-1999 time frame those two guys participated in our show.
PJ started as an intern and within a year was a full panel member
before heading off to college. Chris was one of the first people Kevin
and I approached when we changed the format of the original show to a
permanant panel during segment one. Both are missed, and both are
welcome to return in the future.
Just wanted to spread the credit due.
--__--__--
Message: 7
From: Paul Eggleton <bluelightning@bluelightning.org>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] A couple notes about TLS (& Jeff)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:48:03 +1300
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:07, jeff@thelinuxshow.com wrote:
> But, as of last week we have a green light from our New Zealand based
> edition of TLS. With luck we should have that show up in the next few
> days (so Dave get your butt in gear).
As a Kiwi listener myself, this is great news.
> it is possible that I may be stepping down as the lead man on TLS and
> moving onto another project.
It would be a sad day were this to happen. You're a key part of the show and I
don't think it would be the same without your influence.
> Unfortuantely, this kind of thing has happened more than once this year,
> and we are now looking at a total of nearly $18,000.00 in uncollected
> revenue that was supposed to pay our costs to the last two LinuxWorld
> expos. I am not going to give the name of the other vendors, as I have the
> hope that some will still pay.
This is really disappointing. The non-paying vendors probably don't appreciate
(or even care about) the consequences to you of not paying.
With regard to Sun, we've all seen countless examples of their "left hand,
meet right hand" fragmented behaviour, and I suspect this may be just more of
the same, though with more serious consequences this time.
> We do have the NOC thing happening and we were recently over
> charged at the most recent LinuxWorld in August an almost unbelievable
> amount of money by a couple of the expo service companies.
I truly hope you can find a way out of paying these ridiculous charges. If you
can take the aggravation it may be worth taking them to court on principle,
even if most of the money will be spent on lawyers - assuming you won't be
put further in debt by it.
> Hey I know this is a small group of people who are trying to do this, and
> so far it is directed toward my personal business contacts. But some of
> them are well enough known in the community that this crap could be
> believed and it could escalate.
I wish you were at liberty to expose these people. But I know you cannot.
> So, I guess you can understand why I am presently lacking in enthusiasm for
> members of the Linux community right at the moment......
I'm saddened to hear about all of these bad things that have been happening,
but try not to let them break your spirit. TLS is a major asset to the
community. Most importantly, don't let the naysayers and the morons who are
using underhanded tactics get what they want. As a regular listener and
(admittedly small-time) open source developer, please understand that I
really appreciate your contributions, and I know there are many others who
think the same.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the entire TLS team for all of your
hard work. It has not gone unnoticed.
Cheers,
Paul
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:49:30 -0500
From: David Farning <dfarning@sbcglobal.net>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
About the personal attacks-
Easier said then done--but move beyond them. If you look back
through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when
moving into the mainstream.
Look at issues like minorities rights to vote. No one really cared
when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league
intellectuals. As soon as the movement started growing into the
mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their
lives. A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African
Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers
promoting change.
Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later
most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with
the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good guy).
Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in
the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck
even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (try
searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)
That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.
Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software for
many reasons. Each of these different groups seems to be splintering
off it their own direction. What we need are a few a vendor neutral,
issue agnostic leaders. TLS show in many ways provides that leadership
--note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of
knowledge I'll overlook that for now;)
About the money--
The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux
folks. People have been cheating each other for as long as they have
been able to make agreements. SUN not paying it's bills, what did you
expect? A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- to
promote themselves. TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns
actions lately. Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad. On
the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.
About the show--
How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up
bandwidth. If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live show
that makes sense. Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part
of the show?' There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes
and such have gone on for 20 minutes.
I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present. One minute
TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important
issues.' The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost a
phone connection. Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,
infotainment....
How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a
model for the show personae. Professional, informative, structured
while still being personal. We all know light bulbs in projects break,
phone connection go down, etc. It is up to the presenter or shows
organizer to quietly keep things going forward.
How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he
is out to dinner--this one gets my goat. Why do you expect listeners or
advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do
not appear to do so? I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.
Finally--
Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years. I
promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the
other day. If you need to take a break take one--just come back when
you can.
David Farning.
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:08:53 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Robert M. Stockmann" <stock@stokkie.net>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Farning wrote:
> About the personal attacks-
> Easier said then done--but move beyond them. If you look back
> through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when
> moving into the mainstream.
> Look at issues like minorities rights to vote. No one really cared
> when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league
> intellectuals. As soon as the movement started growing into the
> mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their
> lives. A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African
> Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers
> promoting change.
> Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later
> most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with
> the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good guy).
> Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in
> the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck
> even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (try
> searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)
>
> That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.
> Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software for
> many reasons. Each of these different groups seems to be splintering
> off it their own direction. What we need are a few a vendor neutral,
> issue agnostic leaders. TLS show in many ways provides that leadership
> --note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of
> knowledge I'll overlook that for now;)
And who is David Farning, if i may ask?
>
> About the money--
> The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux
> folks. People have been cheating each other for as long as they have
> been able to make agreements. SUN not paying it's bills, what did you
> expect? A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- to
> promote themselves. TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns
> actions lately. Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad. On
> the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.
Sun's Jonathan Schwartz is the worst thing which could happen to Sun.
>
> About the show--
> How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up
> bandwidth. If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live show
> that makes sense. Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part
> of the show?' There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes
> and such have gone on for 20 minutes.
Hey thats what makes the TLS special. You even have proof that one
is listening to a _real_ live casting. People chit-chat about the
wheather, thats as simple as it gets. And thats how the TLS rises
above other, cold-hearted, cash-in here dudes, shows.
> I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present. One minute
> TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important
> issues.' The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost a
> phone connection. Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,
> infotainment....
> How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a
> model for the show personae. Professional, informative, structured
> while still being personal. We all know light bulbs in projects break,
> phone connection go down, etc. It is up to the presenter or shows
> organizer to quietly keep things going forward.
> How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he
> is out to dinner--this one gets my goat. Why do you expect listeners or
> advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do
> not appear to do so? I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.
You finally hit the point why people love this show, its made by ordinairy
people and that means mistakes and errors can occur.
>
> Finally--
> Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years. I
> promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the
> other day. If you need to take a break take one--just come back when
> you can.
>
> David Farning.
Regards,
Robert M. Stockmann
--
Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE
Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist
crashrecovery.org stock@stokkie.net
--__--__--
Message: 10
From: "Shawn Milo" <ShawnMilo@runbox.com>
To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Subject: Re: [Thelinuxshow] about TLS
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: thelinuxshow@mailman.ibssnet.com
Just wanted to throw in my 2=A2 -- I agree with Robert M. Stockmann.
TLS is a friendly, informal show. It makes you feel like you're sitting in =
a comfy
living room with good friends.
Please keep it that way.
Shawn
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Farning wrote:
>=20
> > About the personal attacks-
> > Easier said then done--but move beyond them. If you look back=20
> > through history, social movements have always gone through turmoil when=
=20
> > moving into the mainstream.
> > Look at issues like minorities rights to vote. No one really cared=
=20
> > when it was a few-hundred courageous African Americans and ivory league=
=20
> > intellectuals. As soon as the movement started growing into the=20
> > mainstream, many fearful people thought that it would disrupt their=20
> > lives. A few, whose livelihood or egos depended on keeping African=20
> > Americans 'in their place' went so far as to lynch the rabble rousers=
=20
> > promoting change.
> > Interesting, unless you live in Georgia or Texas, 50 years later=
=20
> > most people remembers the rabble rousers names not the lynchers (with=
=20
> > the exception of George Wallace and he seldom comes across as the good =
guy).
> > Further back, we can see other issues; conducting catholic mass in=
=20
> > the vernacular, printing the bible in a language other the Latin, heck=
=20
> > even allowing peasants to read was a significant issue at the time. (tr=
y=20
> > searching for Martin Luther and Gutenberg for the history.)
> >=20
> > That you are pissing people off--that is just part of the game.=20=
=20
> > Different people are into Linux, Gnu/Linux, Oss, Foss, Free software fo=
r=20
> > many reasons. Each of these different groups seems to be splintering=
=20
> > off it their own direction. What we need are a few a vendor neutral,=
=20
> > issue agnostic leaders. TLS show in many ways provides that leadership=
=20
> > --note: ESR is not exactly issue agnostic, but because of his wealth of=
=20
> > knowledge I'll overlook that for now;)=20
>=20
> And who is David Farning, if i may ask?
>=20
> >=20
> > About the money--
> > The question of how to earning a living is in not limited to Linux=
=20
> > folks. People have been cheating each other for as long as they have=
=20
> > been able to make agreements. SUN not paying it's bills, what did you=
=20
> > expect? A company pays sponsorship fee for one and only one reason-- t=
o=20
> > promote themselves. TLS has taken a pretty negative view of suns=20
> > actions lately. Why would sun pay someone to make them look bad. On=
=20
> > the other hand, not honoring existing contracts...hmmm.
>=20
> Sun's Jonathan Schwartz is the worst thing which could happen to Sun.
>=20
> >=20
> > About the show--
> > How about dropping the music on the archives, it just takes up=20
> > bandwidth. If you need it to prevent dead air while doing the live sho=
w=20
> > that makes sense. Also how about reducing the 'How's the weather part=
=20
> > of the show?' There have been a few shows when talk about earthquakes=
=20
> > and such have gone on for 20 minutes.=20
>=20
> Hey thats what makes the TLS special. You even have proof that one
> is listening to a _real_ live casting. People chit-chat about the
> wheather, thats as simple as it gets. And thats how the TLS rises
> above other, cold-hearted, cash-in here dudes, shows.
>=20
> > I'm not sure what persona the show is trying to present. One minut=
e=20
> > TLS is bringing together 'knowledgeable people talking about important=
=20
> > issues.' The next minute you all are laughing about how you just lost =
a=20
> > phone connection. Is TLS meant to be informative, entertainment,=20
> > infotainment....=20
> > How about using a well run Linux Users Group or conference as a=20
> > model for the show personae. Professional, informative, structured=20
> > while still being personal. We all know light bulbs in projects break,=
=20
> > phone connection go down, etc. It is up to the presenter or shows=20
> > organizer to quietly keep things going forward.
> > How about the inability to get Doc on the phone or get him while he=
=20
> > is out to dinner--this one gets my goat. Why do you expect listeners o=
r=20
> > advertisers to take the show seriously when the shows personalities do=
=20
> > not appear to do so? I don't mean to slight him or his intentions.
>=20
> You finally hit the point why people love this show, its made by ordinairy
> people and that means mistakes and errors can occur.
>=20
> >=20
> > Finally--
> > Love the show, haven't missed an episode in over two years. I=20
> > promote the show every chance I get , even got called a TLS zealot the=
=20
> > other day. If you need to take a break take one--just come back when=
=20
> > you can.
> >=20
> > David Farning.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Robert M. Stockmann
> --=20
> Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE
> Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist
> crashrecovery.org stock@stokkie.net
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TheLinuxShow mailing list
> TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
> http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
>=20
>=20
--__--__--
_______________________________________________
TheLinuxShow mailing list
TheLinuxShow@mailman.ibssnet.com
http://mailman.ibssnet.com/mailman/listinfo/thelinuxshow
End of TheLinuxShow Digest
